Cryonics - would you do it?

Jim Williams 2367

Unless your using FireFox you may not always see everything. Example, trying to check ratings log, I believe it only works with Fire Fox???????

**** I can so picture you with a foil hat Joseph!!!! ****** ROTFLMAO

Srđan Tufegdžić 2341

I 'm sorry man but on my screen your name is presented as anonymous. If you don't trust me I could use some screen capture programs to prove it. I scrolled down and saw that Jim called you Joseph I think, so I guess that he and maybe some other users can see your name...what is the reason FB made me not to see your name is beyond me. I don't claim to be an expert in that area. I'm just partially informed about the process and given the number of things that can go wrong with the process I just to skeptical. Let say that I'm member of murphynistic ;-) school (everything that can go wrong will go wrong). Some of the data on the site you posted were new to me and really mind stimulating, alas whole question ends up at the point of personal choice. If I were put at the choice to be put to cryonics procedure or not. I would choose not as I don't have enough faith in that process. I hope you aren't offended by mine previous post...I wasn't meant to hurt anyone in anyway. If you find it insulting or something...then I'm sorry about that.

Srđan Tufegdžić 2341

freeze-etch is standard procedure in electron microscopy so I think that freezing will hurt cells by I admit that process is only remotely related to cryopreservation. It doesn't matter where does the pressure comes from outside of cell or inside. It is much easier to attempt to control the ice formation in intracellular space then inside the cell though. Your claim that ice formation occur in intracellular space is in good correlation with size of the tissue that can be cryopreserved without damage. But then I would expect that speed of cooling the tissue isn't of so much importance as you claimed. I would expect it to be more important if the ice formation occur inside the cell. I start to think that poster is either related to some cryopreservation company (in that case please advertise elsewhere) or maybe a believer in such process from some private reasons (man I hope you aren't ill or something). Screening the opinions or re-evaluating the ideas is useful , but anonymous posters with such devotion raise my doubt... or maybe I should start looking for my tin foil hat ;-).

John Supp 2272

Just curious. How does the proposed cryonic system get around the problem of the fact that freezing people makes the cells rupture when the cytoplasm freezes?
If I did get me frozen, I would make sure to set up some long term investments, maybe some CDs, or, in a bad economy, gold. At least some of the cost could be deferred by the fact that I'm no longer eating, driving, etc. It would be an interesting way to ride out an economic recession. Tell them to wake you up once the Dow hits 12000.

Srđan Tufegdžić 2341

I think someone maybe didn't understood what I tried to say. Devitrification is process of transforming amorphous substance like supercooled liquid as glass is into crystal substance. It can occur in glass sometimes spontaneously causing cracks and bursting of the glass. If this happen inside the cell that should be devastating. Ice is crystal, cell contain liquid water and when you cool it by cryogenic process it becomes glass-like. Nevertheless change from liquid (supercooled or not) to solid cause volume change and that mean great pressure to cell membrane. I'm more concerned could that change be rapid as that would be even more damaging.

Aaron Young 2263

To leave that much of my life in the hands of a company or government... let's just say that I don't have that kind of faith.

Another thing to consider would be cultural shock. We can't even imagine what the next ten years will present to us in technology, global relations, or even psychological effects of never having witnessed certain events (a wife's death, child's life and death, and/or the changes of culture due to the time lapsed). I'm sure the costs of cryonics would be ridiculous, but even if they could be paid for, what about paying for the rehabilitation afterward?

Perhaps if I could be cryogenically frozen for a few months - I'm sure the experience would be phenomenal, to miss a great expanse of time in the blink of an eye - I might go for that given that I was insured and guaranteed that I would be alright afterward.

I tend to want to go into the past rather than the future... but it might be cool to be frozen and miss one winter (ironic, huh?).

Jim Williams 2367

Your right I did not go to the link ...until today. Still did not clarify costs. As I said previously, there isn't any way to predict the costs over a 100 year period of storage. As well as no protection against the storage company failing in their venture. ** Perhaps the Government will have a "bail out plan" for them in the future.

While visiting this link I did see a few drawbacks. It states that approximately $700 per month would be associated to "chemical burn off" of the liquid nitrogen. That's $8400 per year!!!! It also states that most of the maintenance staff are volunteers and that those who are employed are poorly paid. Not something I would want to be hearing if my life depended on it...which it does. It does however, state the obvious. Costs will go down as the numbers increase.

I do not completely disagree with the procedure...more along the lines of not secure in it's abilities at this point in time. But as you have surmised ...your dead!!!!...what's the worst that could happen?

I neglected to state "terminal cancer" as my example. Of course I would take corrective measures if the odds were favorable and would not interfere with my quality of life. I would rather live 1 year longer in reasonable health then 3 years longer in pain and agony. I have witnessed many family and friends suffer treatments that, IMO, did not allow them to live reasonably pleasant final months. As a health care professional I believe you would understand what I mean.

~~~~~~~ Now cloning!!!!! That's a horse of a different color~~~~~~~

I do enjoy these dialogues with you Joseph and I thank you in advance for relaying stories of my infinite wisdom to my descendants. :)

Peace out my Brother, make sure they moisturize well, hate to have you wake up all chaffed!!!!!

Srđan Tufegdžić 2341

Since I can't edit just to make some things clear. I know that process involved in cryonics is vitrification. I just wanted to point to dangers and obstacles that has to be crossed before process become reliable. Anyone can type devitrification on Google and see what it is and that is what I tried to describe in maybe oversimplified way. That link posted in the comment on my answer actually support something I have said like the size/number of cell that can be cryopreserved with success. That site had some info I find interesting though and my thanks to the poster.

Jim Williams 2367

I can certainly tell you have put a significant amount of thought and did your homework on the subject. Glad it wasn't just a spur of the moment decision to enter into this agreement. Not that I would have expected anything less from you.

I have a few counter points as a rebuttal.

1. Your confusing "Natural order" with "Evolution" What you described is man evolving into something better. When man uses science and technology to prolong life, improve quality of life or even save life that is for the here and now. What you are suggesting is way beyond natural lifespan. There has to be a reason why we live such short lives.

2. I agree, thawing out Grampa was a little on the ridiculous side....but it was funny as hell!!! ;)

3. I still can't agree with your assessment of costs. The interest on $150,000 really isn't very much, no matter how well invested it is. Curious.... has this facility ever brought someone back? You would think that within 50 years medicine has advanced enough to cure some of the ailments of the first generation Cryo-dudes. Just a thought.....

4. If I were frozen for 100 years...believe me I wouldn't be checking resumes before I got busy!!!!! I realize the odds of hooking up with a descendant is remote so I will concede on this point.

5. The G-d scenario.... considering I am not a practicing Catholic and really don't have any belief structure to adhere to I wouldn't be praying for anything. However, I don't visit Doctors or Hospitals unless the limb is nearly severed. After 23 years in construction... I'm an amateur field medic. ( probably explains a few twisted fingers?!?!?! ) You are correct in your statement about this not being covered in the Bible or any other religious text...... I really don't think the writers could foresee this twist in the plot. But it does raise the question...if G-d is all knowing...should he/she not have put a clause in there somewhere???? Sorry, completely different topic :)))))

6. Vanity.... 100% agree. Most everything we do is seeded by vanity in one form or another. Now remember I said seeded by not driven by. I'm sure you will agree that wanting to do this is most definitely for selfish reasons. Unless you feel that your existence 100 years from now will have a profound impact on humanity...I can't see any other reason.

In general I guess I would have to classify myself as a fatalist. I believe in medicine when it does not interfere with quality of life. For example... if I were to be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow... I would not seek treatment to prolong my life. That is just the way my life was meant to be. Most would think otherwise and I support those that choose that path.

I believe that we all have a single life to do with the best we can. I consider my life to have been filled with laughter and pain, bliss and agony, great achievements and disappointments. I have children and many people that Love me and call me friend. My life was/is good and I have lived it the way i wanted to. I have no fear of death only the manner in which I die. I would face it no differently than any other phase of my life.... with dignity. Perhaps this is why cryogenics is not something of interest to me. We have one incredibly valuable life right now, if we devalue that life by knowing we can live another one down the road then we really have no life at all...we just fill space. That is exactly what cryogenics is proposing...to live two lives.

I could go much much deeper than this however I think you get my point. BTW...you would be ice...not on it!! ;)

Jim Williams 2367

My dear dear friend Joseph, what you perceive as pessimism is merely reality in it's boldest form. You know me and my beliefs by now, I call it straight with no intention to ridicule. I trust that is not what you believe my reply to be?

I call it arrogance b/c that is how I perceive wanting to go beyond the natural order of human existence. As for Family wanting to thaw out Grampa for the holidays...well I honestly can't imagine even wanting to do such a thing. It just seems too unnatural. I mean once you say good bye to a Loved one.... it's over.

Yes, the costs do come into play. No matter what the "plan" is there is no way the average person could afford to do something of this nature with out the on going support of future generations footing the bill or having an estate that could sustain it. There is a cost to maintaining such a "farm" or "storage facility" ( not sure what to call it ) I will admit that I have no idea of the costs involved or the plans available. Just thinking logically. Putting aside even $10,000 a year for 30 years would not come close to covering costs of maintaining a facility for say 100 years. The logistics of such a venture would be too overwhelming and inconceivable. It's difficult enough to make a plan for a business for 10 years let alone 100 years. Perhaps in the future...but not right now.

My b) comment was not exactly "out there" Extreme yes... :) It would not only be our own offspring but all the generations of all of our immediate Family. That could represent a significant number. We are talking about 4 even 5 generations. It's just an "eeewwww" thought.

Your thoughts on c) are noble and I concede to the medical advancements of the future. However, once again it falls within human arrogance to believe that we can do what many G-d fearing individuals would say is not our right. It is playing G-d. I know this is what you were looking for. ;)

1.Extended lifespan, obviously. No disease, no aging (possibly)

Dude!!! Vanity

2.Increased understanding of our universe, increased technology, improved quality of life

That is what we have children for.... each generation gains from the previous

3.Space travel

????? What the heck does space travel have to do with this?????

4.More time to do what I want to.

Do you see the "I" pattern emerging?

5.The opportunity to see what impacts my generation and world will make on the next.

What makes you think you don't get to view this after you die?

6.Really, who wants to die, Jim???

All I can say to that is.... Your not married are you??? :)))))) Sorry, just thought a little humor was in order. ;)

Now that all of that has been said.... YES, I think it would be freakn awesome to jump into the future and see the results. Would I want to stay there? No. I have no issue with anyone doing what they believe is right and makes them happy. On the contrary I would have an issue with anyone that holds back on their desires. The above is simply my outlook on this particular part of existence. My advice before you go under.... invest all of your money in their stock... if it works your set..if not well, it was worth a shot!!!! :)